
                            Peter Michael Kohanski     5/18/21         1



            1             IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                           FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
            2                      SHERMAN DIVISION

            3  TIMOTHY JACKSON,             )
                                            )
            4            Plaintiff,         )
                                            )
            5  v.                           ) CASE NO.
                                            ) 4:21-cv-00033-ALM
            6  LAURA WRIGHT, et al,         )
                                            )
            7            Defendants.        )
                                            )
            8

            9

           10             -----------------------------------

           11                     ORAL DEPOSITION OF

           12                   PETER MICHAEL KOHANSKI

           13                        MAY 18, 2021

           14             -----------------------------------

           15

           16

           17       ORAL DEPOSITION OF PETER MICHAEL KOHANSKI, produced

           18  as a witness at the instance of the Plaintiff, and duly

           19  sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause

           20  on May 18, 2021, from 9:07 a.m. to 11:29 a.m., before

           21  Nita G. Cullen, CSR in and for the State of Texas,

           22  reported by machine shorthand, at the Law Offices of

           23  Cutler Smith, 12750 Merit Drive, Suite 1450, in the City

           24  of Dallas, County of Dallas, State of Texas, pursuant to

           25  the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.



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            1                    A P P E A R A N C E S

            2

            3  FOR THE PLAINTIFF:

            4       MR. MICHAEL THAD ALLEN
                    MS. SAMANTHA HARRIS
            5       ALLEN LAW, LLC
                    P.O. Box 404
            6       Quaker Hill, Connecticut 06375
                    860.772.4738
            7       860.469.2783 Fax
                    m.allen@allen-lawfirm.com
            8

            9  FOR THE DEFENDANTS:

           10       MR. MATT BOHUSLAV
                    ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL
           11       GENERAL LITIGATION DIVISION
                    ATTORNEY GENERAL OF TEXAS
           12       P.O. Box 12548, Capitol Station
                    Austin, Texas 78711
           13       matthew.bohuslav@oag.texas.gov

           14  AND

           15       MR. RENALDO STOWERS
                    SENIOR ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL
           16       UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS SYSTEM
                    OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL
           17       1155 Union Circle
                    Denton, Texas 76203
           18       940.565.2717
                    renaldo.stowers@untsystem.edu
           19

           20  ALSO PRESENT:

           21       MR. TIMOTHY JACKSON

           22

           23

           24

           25



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            1                            INDEX

            2                                                      PAGE

            3  Appearances.......................................... 2

            4  Stipulations......................................... 4

            5  PETER MICHAEL KOHANSKI

            6       Examination by Mr. Allen......................... 4

            7

            8  Reporter's Certificate................................95

            9

           10

           11                          EXHIBITS

           12  NO.  DESCRIPTION                                    PAGE

           13  Exhibit  1     Subpoena for Peter Kohanski............ 8

           14  Exhibit  2     E-mail to Timothy Jackson from the
                              president of GAMuT, July 29, 2020......18
           15
               Exhibit  3     Exhibit 3..............................72
           16

           17

           18

           19

           20

           21

           22

           23

           24

           25



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            1                   P R O C E E D I N G S

            2                   PETER MICHAEL KOHANSKI,

            3  having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:

            4                         EXAMINATION

            5  BY MR. ALLEN:

            6       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kohanski.  As you know, this

            7  is a deposition.  I'm just going to ask you a few

            8  questions to get started and discuss sort of some ground

            9  rules, if you will.  Could you --

           10                 MR. ALLEN:  Did you get his full name?

           11                 COURT REPORTER:  Yes.

           12       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  Okay.  This is an extension of

           13  the Court.  It's a very formal conversation.  There will

           14  be times at which counsel may object.  Can I ask you if

           15  you're represented by counsel today?

           16       A.   Yes.

           17       Q.   Who is your attorney?

           18       A.   Matt.

           19                 MR. ALLEN:  So, Matt, when we -- if I

           20  could, when we discussed this, you said you were not

           21  representing the witnesses.  Mr. Kohanski's not a party,

           22  but the State has stepped in to represent them?

           23                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Yes.

           24                 MR. ALLEN:  Okay.  Thank you.

           25       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  So, he -- your counsel -- Mr.



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            1  Bohuslav?

            2                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Yes.

            3       Q.   (By Mr. Allen) -- may object from time to time.

            4  This is part of the formality of the proceedings.

            5                 MR. ALLEN:  Matt, should we agree that all

            6  objections, except those as to form, shall be reserved

            7  till the time of trial?

            8                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Yes.

            9       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  That does not relieve -- so, if

           10  he were to object, that does not relieve you of the

           11  obligation to answer.  You are obligated to answer

           12  questions I ask; however, there may be times when you

           13  don't understand my question or I've been incoherent or

           14  something like that.  Please feel free to interrupt me

           15  and ask for clarification, but if you do not do that, it

           16  is understood that I will assume that you did understand

           17  the question.

           18       A.   (Witness nods head affirmatively.)

           19                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Let me ask for

           20  clarification.  Your question, reserving objections for

           21  time of trial, would you clarify what you mean by that?

           22                 MR. ALLEN:  I mean that if we want to make

           23  substantive objections that go to the relevance or some

           24  such thing, those would be reserved till the time of

           25  trial.  If you want to object to form, of course, that's



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            1  the form of which I ask the question, may go to the

            2  clarity of the question, whether it calls for

            3  speculation, something of that nature, of course, you

            4  should raise those objections.

            5                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Okay.  Pursuant to the

            6  rules.

            7                 MR. ALLEN:  Correct.

            8                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Okay.

            9       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  So, Mr. Kohanski, this is also

           10  a very important rule.  Remember, this is being recorded

           11  and typed, and so things like you nodding your head,

           12  although it's clear, I could see what you were

           13  answering, it's not clear on the record because you

           14  didn't say anything.

           15       A.   Okay.

           16       Q.   So, I asked you, if you do not ask for

           17  clarification, I will assume that you understood the

           18  question; is that understood?

           19       A.   Yes.

           20       Q.   Thank you.  Likewise, I'm going to ask you to

           21  wait until I finish my questions, just to avoid any

           22  uncertainty.

           23       A.   Okay.  Sure.

           24       Q.   And, again, that's -- it's normal in the course

           25  of a conversation to interject or what not, but I'm just



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            1  going to ask that you try to abide by those ground rules

            2  so that we can have a very clear record for the Court.

            3       A.   Sure.

            4       Q.   Is there anything that would prevent you from

            5  giving truthful testimony today?

            6       A.   No.

            7       Q.   You are not on any medication?

            8       A.   I am.

            9       Q.   What medication are you on?

           10       A.   Zoloft.

           11       Q.   What do you take Zoloft for?

           12       A.   For depression.

           13       Q.   Does that affect your memory in any way?

           14       A.   Not that I know of.  I've only just recently

           15  started taking it.

           16       Q.   Does it affect your ability to give truthful

           17  testimony, to the best of your knowledge?

           18       A.   No.

           19       Q.   Is there anything else that might prevent you

           20  from giving clear and truthful testimony, such as an

           21  illness, any kind of mental or physical disability?

           22       A.   No.

           23       Q.   And could I ask what you take the Zoloft for,

           24  did you say?

           25       A.   For depression.



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            1       Q.   From time to time, I'm going to introduce

            2  exhibits and ask you to look at documents, and we'll

            3  start with this one here.  Give this to you, Matt.  I'll

            4  provide one to your attorney, and, of course, I'll

            5  provide one to the Court Reporter, and I'll provide one

            6  to you.

            7               (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 1 MARKED.)

            8       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  Could I ask you to examine the

            9  document?  And have you had a chance to examine that

           10  document, Mr. Kohanski?

           11       A.   Yes, I've read all this before in the one that

           12  I received.

           13       Q.   So, you do recognize the document?

           14       A.   I do.

           15       Q.   And you recognize it as a subpoena served upon

           16  you?

           17       A.   Yes.

           18       Q.   And have you appeared today in response to this

           19  subpoena?

           20       A.   Yes.

           21       Q.   Thank you.  If I could ask you to turn to --

           22  let me ask the Court to mark this as Deposition

           23  Exhibit 1, please.  Could you turn to the Exhibit "A" to

           24  this document, and proceed to the back page, where it

           25  says "Documents Requested"?  Do you see that?



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            1       A.   Yes.

            2       Q.   I just want to go through these and ask what

            3  you've done to examine documents or search your records

            4  for documents to produce in response to this subpoena.

            5  As you probably saw, your attorney provided to me some

            6  documents at the beginning of this deposition.  Am I to

            7  understand that these were produced in response to the

            8  subpoena by you?

            9       A.   Yes.

           10       Q.   Okay.  And what have you done to look for

           11  documents in response to the subpoena request?

           12       A.   I've gone through my e-mail, text messages,

           13  Facebook messages, I've gone through Teams, Microsoft

           14  Teams, and I looked for any documents I had saved on my

           15  computer.

           16       Q.   Mr. Kohanski, do you use any other social media

           17  besides Facebook and Teams?

           18       A.   Yes.  Twitter, Instagram.  I did go through

           19  Twitter, yeah.

           20       Q.   Did you go through your Instagram account?

           21       A.   No.

           22       Q.   And why is that?

           23       A.   There was nothing related to this issue that I

           24  posted on my Instagram account ever.

           25       Q.   What do you use your Instagram account for?



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            1       A.   To post pictures.

            2       Q.   What kind of pictures?

            3       A.   Personal pictures.

            4       Q.   And so, it's your position that there was no

            5  content that you posted on Instagram that would have

            6  related to these requests.

            7       A.   That's correct.

            8       Q.   Did you discuss the collection of documents

            9  with anyone besides your attorney?

           10       A.   Could you clarify that question?

           11       Q.   Did you discuss your response to the subpoena,

           12  in terms of collecting documents, with anyone other than

           13  your attorney?

           14       A.   Yes.

           15       Q.   Who would you have discussed the collection of

           16  documents with, other than your attorney?

           17                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Let me ask for -- just so

           18  we don't get into attorney/client privilege, we're

           19  talking about attorney, meaning myself, or counsel for --

           20                 MR. ALLEN:  When I refer to his attorney,

           21  I'm referring to you, because it's been represented that

           22  you are engaged in some sort of legal representation of

           23  him, unless I misunderstood.  I do not understand that

           24  UNT's counsel is representing him, but if I'm mistaken

           25  about that, please clarify.  May I ask Renaldo Stowers,



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            1  are you representing the witness?

            2                 MR. STOWERS:  We can go off the record, we

            3  can discuss it.

            4                 MR. ALLEN:  Well, I think we need it on

            5  the record, because if you are, then I'll respect that

            6  privilege; if not, I'm entitled to ask him what he may

            7  have discussed with you.

            8                 MR. STOWERS:  Can we go off the record?

            9                 MR. ALLEN:  Sure.

           10                 (OFF THE RECORD FROM 9:16 TO 9:19 A.M.)

           11                 MR. ALLEN:  So, we're back on the record.

           12  It appears that Mr. Kohanski is represented, in a

           13  limited capacity, by the General Counsel's office of the

           14  University of Texas.  And, of course, we will respect

           15  the privilege of those conversations.

           16       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  But Mr. Kohanski, there was a

           17  question which remained unanswered before we went off

           18  the record, which was, excluding your counsel, which

           19  would be Matt Bohuslav here today, as well as the GC's

           20  office, did you consult anyone regarding the collection

           21  of documents in response to this subpoena?

           22       A.   Can you clarify what you mean by "consult"?

           23       Q.   Did you have any discussions with other

           24  individuals, excluding your counsel or the GC's office

           25  of the University of North Texas, concerning collecting



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            1  documents in response to this subpoena?

            2       A.   Yes.

            3       Q.   And could you identify who you discussed

            4  collecting documents in response to this subpoena with?

            5       A.   My family.

            6       Q.   And could you name the individuals in your

            7  family that you discussed collecting documents with?

            8       A.   Would you like their names or like my

            9  relationship to them?

           10       Q.   Let's start with their names.

           11       A.   Susan Kohanski, John Kohanski, and Andrew

           12  Kohanski.

           13       Q.   Are any of these individuals associated with

           14  the University of North Texas?

           15       A.   No.

           16       Q.   Could you identify how Susan Kohanski is

           17  related to you?

           18       A.   She's my mother.

           19       Q.   Is John Kohanski your father?

           20       A.   Yes.

           21       Q.   And Andrew is --

           22       A.   My brother.

           23       Q.   And, specifically, what did you discuss with

           24  them about collecting documents?

           25       A.   I told them what I was doing in response to the



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            1  subpoena and collecting documents and how I went about

            2  getting the documents and looking for them.

            3       Q.   Did you have some of your documents with your

            4  family?

            5       A.   Can you clarify?

            6       Q.   I'm just wondering, you said you've discussed

            7  with them collecting the documents, and I am asking

            8  whether the documents collected were deposited or

            9  somehow kept with your family?

           10       A.   No.  Unless you count text messages between my

           11  family and me.

           12       Q.   And were all documents that you identified that

           13  were responsive to these requests produced?

           14       A.   I'm sorry.  Can you repeat that?

           15       Q.   Did you produce all documents you identified

           16  that were responsive to these requests?

           17       A.   Yes.

           18       Q.   And let me clarify, I guess "responsive" is one

           19  of those legal terms that's very familiar to lawyers but

           20  may not be familiar to you.  By that I mean, are

           21  documents indicated that you should collect and produce

           22  in response to these requests, making them responsive?

           23  Is that clear?

           24       A.   Yes.

           25       Q.   Thank you.  And -- can we go off the record for



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            1  a second?

            2                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Yes.

            3                 (OFF THE RECORD FROM 9:22 TO 9:23 A.M.)

            4       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  I just wanted to get a little

            5  background, Mr. Kohanski.  Could you explain to me your

            6  relationship to the University of North Texas?

            7       A.   I am a graduate student and a teaching

            8  assistant.

            9       Q.   You're a graduate student in what department?

           10       A.   The division of music history, theory and

           11  ethnomusicology.

           12       Q.   And you also said you're a teaching assistant?

           13       A.   Yes.

           14       Q.   What do you assist in teaching?

           15       A.   I assist with music history classes for music

           16  majors.

           17       Q.   Are you pursuing a degree?

           18       A.   I am.

           19       Q.   What degree?

           20       A.   Ph.D.

           21       Q.   Could you explain to me your educational

           22  career, starting -- I'm not interested so much in high

           23  school, but if you could tell me where you went to

           24  college and your educational history after that point?

           25       A.   I went to the Catholic University of America,



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            1  and then I started at UNT.

            2       Q.   And could you give me your graduation dates for

            3  any institution you've graduated from in your

            4  educational background?

            5       A.   I graduated from Catholic University in

            6  May 2018.

            7       Q.   Did you take time off between Catholic

            8  University of America and University of North Texas?

            9       A.   No.

           10       Q.   What did you study at the Catholic University

           11  of America?

           12       A.   Music history.

           13       Q.   Are you a performer, as well, of music?

           14       A.   Not currently.

           15       Q.   Have you received any degrees from the

           16  University of North Texas, to date?

           17       A.   No.

           18       Q.   Is it anticipated that you'll get a master's

           19  degree?

           20       A.   No.

           21       Q.   So, you'll -- you'll drive forward to the

           22  Ph.D., and you will not collect a master's degree on the

           23  way?

           24       A.   That's correct.

           25       Q.   As is the case in some programs.



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            1       A.   (Witness nods head affirmatively.)

            2       Q.   So, you're entering -- I guess, are you

            3  completing your third year or your second year, then?

            4       A.   I've just completed my third year.

            5       Q.   Could you describe to me University of North

            6  Texas' program for graduate students as you advance

            7  towards the Ph.D.?  What milestones or qualifications do

            8  you have to achieve in order to progress in the program?

            9       A.   You have to complete your course work, you have

           10  to do two language proficiency exams, you need to do

           11  your qualifying exams, dissertation.

           12       Q.   Have you passed your qualifying exams at this

           13  time?

           14       A.   I've passed part one.

           15       Q.   Can you describe to me that exam and its parts?

           16       A.   To clarify, the first part that I took?

           17       Q.   You said there was a part one, so I'm just

           18  wondering how many parts there are?  Could you just

           19  subscribe to me how this exam takes place?  And if you

           20  could, in as much detail as possible, describe how the

           21  exam works.

           22       A.   There are two parts.  I should clarify, this is

           23  just for musicology.  There are two parts.  The first

           24  part is score I.D., where you get six scores, three from

           25  before 1750, three from after 1750, unknown scores, and



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            1  you have to describe them in terms of form, style,

            2  genre, et cetera, and try to identify them.  And then,

            3  the second part are your qualifying exam topics, where

            4  you choose three topics from music history, you come up

            5  with a bibliography on them, you spend the summer

            6  reading that bibliography, and then you write an essay

            7  question on each one of them and do an oral defense of

            8  those essays.

            9       Q.   And the second part that you just described is

           10  still in front of you, is that it?

           11       A.   Yes.

           12       Q.   Will you be working on that this summer?

           13       A.   Yes.

           14       Q.   Have you finished all of your course work at

           15  this time?

           16       A.   No.

           17       Q.   How much of your course work is left to

           18  complete?

           19       A.   Six credits.

           20       Q.   Is that a semester's worth of work?  Two

           21  semesters?  How many semesters do you anticipate taking

           22  to finish your six credits?

           23       A.   One semester.

           24       Q.   Given this training, do you consider yourself

           25  an expert in music theory?



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            1       A.   No.

            2                 MR. ALLEN:  I'm going to mark another

            3  exhibit.  This will be marked as Exhibit 2, if you

            4  could.

            5               (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 2 MARKED.)

            6       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  Mr. Kohanski, I want to give

            7  you an opportunity to examine this document.  Is this

            8  your name at the bottom of this first page?

            9       A.   Yes, it is.

           10       Q.   Did you compose this -- the material, starting

           11  with "Dear colleagues" that follows on this first page?

           12       A.   Yes.

           13       Q.   And to whom did you send this message?

           14       A.   Many graduate students in the division of MHD

           15  at UNT.

           16       Q.   Many?  Could you be more specific?

           17       A.   To the best of my memory right now, it was

           18  probably about 40.  But in the documents we provided,

           19  there should be an exact number, I believe.

           20       Q.   Were there graduate students you excluded from

           21  receipt of this message?

           22       A.   No.

           23       Q.   Is there some sort of -- how did you find all

           24  of their contact information to send this message?

           25       A.   Together with my colleagues, we came up with as



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            1  many names as we could think of that we know were

            2  current students at UNT, and from there, it's -- you can

            3  just -- all the e-mail format at UNT is the same, and we

            4  could put their e-mails in based on their names.

            5       Q.   Was there a central server list that you could

            6  just blast out an e-mail to every graduate student of

            7  any sort?

            8       A.   No.

            9       Q.   Okay.  And what was your purpose in sending

           10  this message?

           11       A.   To solicit signatures to a letter we were

           12  sending to the dean of the college of music.

           13       Q.   I think you also mentioned that you sent it to

           14  graduate students, but also colleagues.  Who were you

           15  identifying as colleagues?

           16       A.   Graduate students.

           17       Q.   Were there any recipients of this, in addition

           18  to graduate students that you sent it to?

           19                Sorry.  Strike that question, please.

           20                I think you had indicated that you composed

           21  this with colleagues, correct?

           22       A.   Composed what?

           23       Q.   This Exhibit 2.

           24                 MS. HARRIS:  A list of people you sent

           25  the --



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            1                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Please have one attorney

            2  asking questions.

            3       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  Let me back up.  Did you

            4  compose this message in conjunction with any other

            5  individuals?

            6       A.   No.

            7       Q.   So, you were the sole author of this "Dear

            8  colleagues" to the end of the letter.

            9       A.   Yes.

           10       Q.   And I believe you said you composed a list of

           11  graduate students with your colleagues.

           12       A.   Yes.

           13       Q.   A list of recipients, excuse me, is that

           14  correct?

           15       A.   Yes.

           16       Q.   And who were those colleagues who helped you

           17  compile a list of recipients?

           18       A.   Bryan Stephens, that's B-R-Y-A-N, Rachel Gain,

           19  Salvador Hernandez.  To the best of my knowledge, that

           20  might be everyone.  There were certainly more people on

           21  the Zoom call where we did that, but I can't think of

           22  anyone else, specifically, who was coming up with names.

           23       Q.   You mentioned a Zoom call.  When was that Zoom

           24  call?

           25       A.   I don't know the date.



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            1       Q.   Do you know more or less the time frame?

            2       A.   The end of July 2020.

            3       Q.   And who called the Zoom meeting?

            4       A.   I don't remember.

            5       Q.   Do you have any position of authority among the

            6  graduate students?

            7       A.   I did.

            8       Q.   And could you describe that position for us?

            9       A.   At the time, I was president of the graduate

           10  association of musicologists and theorists.

           11       Q.   Could you describe the duties and obligations

           12  of that position?

           13       A.   Basically, the day-to-day running of that

           14  association; conference planning, financials, running

           15  meetings.

           16       Q.   What kind of meetings?

           17       A.   Normal business meetings that we have

           18  throughout the year.

           19       Q.   What do these meetings accomplish?

           20       A.   Professional development.

           21       Q.   Are you responsible for any diversity, equity

           22  and inclusion training?

           23       A.   Can you define "responsible"?  What do you mean

           24  by that?

           25       Q.   You said that these meetings take place that



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            1  handle administrative things associated with the

            2  graduate program from the graduate student level.  Is

            3  that a correct -- is that a correct summary of what you

            4  just told me?

            5       A.   No.

            6       Q.   Could you describe again for me, because I'm

            7  confused, honestly.  Could you describe again for me

            8  what this committee -- I'm referring to the committee --

            9  can you state the name of the committee again?

           10       A.   The graduate association of musicologists and

           11  theorists.

           12       Q.   So will it be clear if I just refer to that as

           13  the graduate association, is that fair?

           14       A.   You can call it GAMuT.

           15       Q.   GAMuT?  Is that G-A-M-U-T?

           16       A.   Yeah.

           17       Q.   So, GAMuT, could you describe again for me what

           18  GAMuT does?

           19       A.   It's for professional development and social

           20  things and -- yeah.

           21       Q.   When you say, "social things," what does that

           22  mean?

           23       A.   It means sometimes after our meetings, we'll

           24  get together and have drinks.

           25       Q.   And what do you include within professional



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            1  development?

            2       A.   Reading each others' abstracts before we submit

            3  to conferences, conference previews.  We invite people

            4  to lecture for us or give presentations.

            5       Q.   Do you take over any of the responsibility for

            6  diversity, equity and inclusion training among the

            7  graduate students?

            8       A.   No.

            9       Q.   Could you turn to the second page of Exhibit

           10  No. 2, where it says, "Dear Dean Richmond"?  Who

           11  composed this part of the letter?

           12       A.   There were several people.

           13       Q.   Could you identify them for the Court?

           14       A.   Myself, Rachel Gain, Bryan Stevens, Brian

           15  Anderson, Jessica Stearns.

           16       Q.   How do you spell her name?

           17       A.   Her first name or last name?

           18       Q.   Both.

           19       A.   J-E-S-S-I-C-A S-T-E-A-R-N-S, Robert Anderson,

           20  Dani Van Oort.

           21       Q.   Could you spell his last name?

           22       A.   It's a female, actually.

           23       Q.   Oh, so perhaps you should spell -- is that her

           24  full name?

           25       A.   D-A-N-I space V-A-N-O-O-R-T.  It was seen and



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            1  edited by many -- probably more people than that.  I

            2  can't come up with a full list of names, but I believe

            3  those people were the main people kind of doing the

            4  actual writing of it.

            5       Q.   Was there any input from professors?

            6       A.   No.

            7       Q.   Was there any input from anyone connected to

            8  the Society for Music Theory, other than the graduate

            9  students you've just named?

           10       A.   No.

           11       Q.   And Dean Richmond, does that refer to Dean John

           12  Richmond?

           13       A.   It does.

           14       Q.   Of the College of Music?

           15       A.   It does.

           16       Q.   Thank you.  Of all the people you named, are

           17  there any of these individuals who are not graduate

           18  students in the College of Music?

           19       A.   No.

           20       Q.   So, is it safe to say that the letter, if I may

           21  refer to this "Dear Dean Richmond" document as a letter,

           22  you'll understand what I mean, correct, if I say this is

           23  a letter?

           24       A.   Yes.

           25       Q.   Even though I understand it may have been sent



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            1  by e-mail.

            2       A.   Yes.

            3       Q.   So, is it safe to say the letter was a

            4  collective product of this group of graduate students

            5  who are involved in GAMuT?

            6       A.   No.

            7       Q.   Did GAMuT have a hand in drafting this letter?

            8       A.   It was not an official GAMuT activity.

            9       Q.   So, it's your position that this was a private

           10  statement or letter drafted by these specific

           11  individuals that you've just listed.

           12       A.   Sorry.  Can you repeat that?

           13       Q.   You said this was not composed as an official

           14  letter by GAMuT.  Did I understand that correctly?

           15       A.   That's correct.

           16       Q.   So, my follow-up question is, in what capacity

           17  was this letter drafted by you and the other students?

           18       A.   As concerned graduate students and members of

           19  the division.

           20       Q.   So, that is just as you describe it in the

           21  first sentence, "We, a cross-section of graduate

           22  students in the Division of Music Theory -- excuse me --

           23  Music History, Theory, and Ethnomusicology" are writing,

           24  is that correct?

           25       A.   Yes.



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            1       Q.   I want to ask you some specific questions about

            2  the document.  It refers, in the second paragraph, to

            3  "anti-Black racism and platforming of ad hominem attacks

            4  in response to Dr. Philip Ewell's scholarship."  And you

            5  also call those "egregious acts".

            6                What anti-Black racism are you identifying

            7  in that second paragraph?  Can you explain each thing

            8  that you considered an anti-Black racism that you were

            9  writing about this there?

           10       A.   So, more generally speaking, I'm talking

           11  about -- we were talking about Dr. Jackson's article in

           12  Volume 12 of the Journal for Schenkerian Studies;

           13  specifically, I think we were talking about the

           14  pathologization -- pathologizing the black community as

           15  a monolith and as anti-Semitic.  Talking about how he

           16  said that black people need to be brought up to a

           17  standard, a white standard.

           18       Q.   What is the white standard that he identified,

           19  in your mind?

           20       A.   Classical music as the greatest music in the

           21  world or the best music in the world.

           22       Q.   And you also said he pathologized the black

           23  community.  What do you mean by that?

           24       A.   I mean, he characterized the black community as

           25  somehow intrinsically disordered or inferior because of



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            1  anti-Semitism.

            2       Q.   Do you believe there is no anti-Semitism in the

            3  black community?

            4       A.   I don't know enough about it.

            5       Q.   Do you think it is anti-Black racism to

            6  identify or discuss anti-Semitism in the black

            7  community?

            8       A.   Yes.

            9       Q.   Would it be anti-Asian to identify

           10  anti-Semitism in the Asian community?

           11       A.   If it was done in the way that it was done

           12  here.

           13       Q.   Would it be anti-White to identify

           14  anti-Semitism in a white community?

           15       A.   Sorry, can you repeat that?

           16       Q.   I think it was pretty clear.  I said, is it

           17  anti-White to identify anti-Semitism in a white

           18  community?

           19       A.   If it was done in the same way it was done

           20  here.

           21       Q.   Describe the way it was done here by which I

           22  understand you're referring to Professor Jackson's

           23  article in the Journal of Schenkerian Studies, Volume

           24  12.  What way in which it was done here are you

           25  referring to?



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            1       A.   Again, characterizing the black community as a

            2  monolith, as something that's collective, and describing

            3  anti-Semitism as a characteristic of that collective,

            4  and discussing anti-Semitism in a very uncritical way,

            5  in a way that cites Wikipedia, and in a way that

            6  probably refuses to critically engage a scholarship on

            7  hip-hop and rap that I'm sure deals with that issue in a

            8  much more nuanced way.

            9       Q.   Have you yourself studied the genre of hip-hop

           10  and rap?

           11       A.   Not in great detail.

           12       Q.   Do you deny that there is anti-Semitism

           13  expressed in the tradition of rap and hip-hop music?

           14       A.   I don't know enough about it.

           15       Q.   So you had no basis to form a judgment whether

           16  there was anti-Semitism in the rap or hip-hop canon, if

           17  you will, is that correct?

           18                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, leading.

           19       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  This is a classic example where

           20  you're still obligated to answer the question, and the

           21  Judge will sort that out.

           22                Can I ask the Reporter the read the

           23  question, again?

           24                (THE RECORD WAS READ BACK.)

           25                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, leading to the



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            1  question.

            2       A.   I suppose that's correct.

            3       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  I'm curious about this term

            4  "monolithic".  Could you explain what you mean by that?

            5       A.   Yes.  As something that's, like I said,

            6  collective and not -- you know, it's something that can

            7  be supplied to the entire community or considering the

            8  community as a collective without nuance.

            9       Q.   What would you consider nuance?

           10       A.   Not saying that something can be applied to all

           11  black people.

           12       Q.   Is it safe to say it would not be nuance to

           13  apply such judgments to an entire field of music, like

           14  rap and hip-hop, for instance?

           15       A.   Yes.

           16       Q.   So if someone argued that, say, classical music

           17  was an embodiment of white privilege, would that be

           18  lacking in nuance?

           19       A.   The way you -- I think there's a more nuanced

           20  way to have that discussion than the way you just put

           21  it.

           22       Q.   That's fine.  I'm just asking you a question.

           23  Would it be lacking in nuance to characterize the entire

           24  corpus of classical music as an expression of white

           25  privilege?



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            1       A.   Yes.

            2       Q.   Platforming of ad hominem attacks in response

            3  to Dr. Philip Ewell.  Could you explain exactly what you

            4  mean by those specific ad hominem attacks in response to

            5  Dr. Philip Ewell's scholarship?  That's in that same

            6  first sentence.

            7       A.   I think it's much of the same thing, in terms

            8  of calling him anti-Semitic.

            9       Q.   Was he specifically called anti-Semitic in that

           10  article by Dr. Jackson, in Volume 12 of the Journal of

           11  Schenkerian Studies?

           12       A.   I mean, I don't remember the exact phrasing.

           13       Q.   Did you remember the exact phrasing when you

           14  composed this letter?

           15       A.   Yes.

           16       Q.   Can I ask, when did you read Dr. Jackson's

           17  article in the Journal of Schenkerian Studies, Volume

           18  12?

           19       A.   July 2020.

           20       Q.   Do you remember the day?

           21       A.   I don't remember the exact date.

           22       Q.   Do you remember -- and I understand the limits

           23  of human memory, but I'm just trying to ask you to put

           24  it in relation to other events.  Do you remember how

           25  long after the journal appeared that you read his



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            1  article?  Dr. Jackson's article, I mean.

            2       A.   It was very soon after the journal came out.

            3       Q.   A matter of days?

            4       A.   Yes.

            5       Q.   Do you remember it being a matter of hours?

            6       A.   Parts of the article I read in a matter of

            7  hours, not the whole thing.

            8       Q.   Do you remember what parts you did not read?

            9       A.   Within a matter of hours, you're saying?

           10       Q.   Let's be clear.  I think there's maybe some

           11  unclarity.  Do you mean you read it in the course of a

           12  few hours?

           13       A.   No.  I read parts of the article within a few

           14  hours of it kind of appearing, and then I read the whole

           15  thing within a couple or a few days after.

           16       Q.   When did you begin composing this?  You said in

           17  late July, correct?

           18       A.   That's correct.

           19       Q.   Can I ask you if you began composing this

           20  before or after you had read the entire article?

           21       A.   After.

           22       Q.   Do you think, if you read the article again,

           23  you would be able to identify what specific accusations

           24  of anti-Semitism were ad hominem attacks in response to

           25  Dr. Philip Ewell?



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            1       A.   Yes.

            2       Q.   But you just simply can't, given the limits of

            3  human memory, identify those at this time, is that

            4  correct?

            5       A.   That's correct.

            6       Q.   You said earlier that it was monolithic, and

            7  you would characterize that in negative terms to, I

            8  think, refer to whole groups as anti-Semitic, in

            9  general.  Am I characterizing that fairly?

           10       A.   No.

           11       Q.   So, please explain to me again what you mean by

           12  "monolithic" with regard to, say, the black community.

           13                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, vague.

           14       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  I think it's a vague term, so

           15  I'm asking for clarification.

           16       A.   To -- to characterize every single black person

           17  in the same exact way.

           18       Q.   So, it is also impermissible to characterize

           19  Philip Ewell as anti-Semitic as an individual, is that

           20  correct?

           21       A.   Yes.

           22       Q.   This refers, in the second sentence -- I'm

           23  sorry, we're plowing through this, Mr. Kohanski.  In the

           24  second sentence, it says, "egregious acts that go beyond

           25  the bounds of academic discourse."  What egregious acts



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            1  are you referring to in this letter?

            2       A.   The perpetuation of anti-Black racism,

            3  platforming of ad hominem attacks.

            4       Q.   So, again, this comes back to statements

            5  published in the Journal of Schenkerian Studies?

            6       A.   Yes, and also the process of its conception.

            7       Q.   Can I ask if you read any of the materials

            8  submitted by Timothy Jackson to the Court detailing the

            9  editorial process of the journal?

           10       A.   I believe I read some.

           11       Q.   Do you remember what they were?

           12       A.   I do not.

           13       Q.   Did you read any of the e-mails exchanged back

           14  and forth amongst the editorial committee or -- strike

           15  that, please.

           16                Do you remember reading any of the e-mails

           17  exchanged back and forth amongst the editorial staff of

           18  the Journal?

           19       A.   Sorry.  Were you asking if I remember?

           20       Q.   Do you remember reading --

           21       A.   Yeah.

           22       Q.   -- the e-mails exchanged back and forth between

           23  the editorial staff of the Journal of Schenkerian

           24  Studies with regard to Volume 12?

           25       A.   I don't remember reading those.



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            1       Q.   Had you read them by the time you composed this

            2  letter?

            3       A.   No.

            4       Q.   Were those even available to you by the time

            5  you composed this letter?

            6       A.   No.

            7       Q.   Did reading any of them change your mind about

            8  what you had written when you composed this letter?

            9       A.   Well, I don't believe I did read them.

           10       Q.   Okay.  You had said earlier you read some, but

           11  it was my understanding you weren't able to identify

           12  exactly what you had read.  What was the source of what

           13  you did read?

           14       A.   I believe when this lawsuit was first

           15  initiated, there was like a Google drive of the

           16  complaint going around on the Internet.

           17       Q.   And you consulted that?

           18       A.   Yes.

           19       Q.   But you said you did not read all the exhibits

           20  attached to the complaint, is that correct?

           21       A.   I believe that's correct.

           22       Q.   Can you remember which exhibits you read?

           23       A.   I cannot.

           24       Q.   Okay.  I'm going to skip down to where you've

           25  enumerated three, I think what you call "reprehensible



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            1  aspects of the journal."  The first is a "Lack of Peer

            2  Review."  Are you aware of any other publications in

            3  music history, music theory, musicology that are

            4  published in scholarly journals without peer review?

            5       A.   No.

            6       Q.   So, it's your position that all publications in

            7  scholarly journals must be subjected to peer review.

            8                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, leading.

            9       A.   Yes.

           10       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  And why do you believe that the

           11  articles in Volume 12 that were connected with the

           12  symposium -- incidentally, by "symposium", do you know

           13  what I'm referring to?

           14       A.   Yes.

           15       Q.   What am I referring to when I say "symposium"?

           16  This is just part of the format.

           17       A.   Volume 12 of the Journal of Schenkerian

           18  Studies, the symposium response to Philip Ewell's

           19  keynote address.

           20       Q.   And we understand that the articles that were

           21  published alongside those, that were part of the

           22  ordinary course of the journal's scholarly publications,

           23  are not part of the symposium.  I think there were three

           24  such scholarly articles.

           25       A.   Yes.



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            1       Q.   Okay.  Just to be clear.  So, in your view,

            2  what is a reprehensible aspect of not subjecting

            3  articles to peer review?

            4       A.   Not subjecting articles to peer review can --

            5  there is a danger that the scholarship will not be

            6  rigorous enough and in a way that's generally understood

            7  it needs to be in academic discourse.

            8       Q.   How would it not be rigorous enough?  Can you

            9  just explain that?  What's the mechanism?  How is that

           10  supposed to work, in practice?

           11       A.   I have never edited articles, I'm not quite

           12  sure, it's just something I understand to be a -- you

           13  know, a given in academia.

           14       Q.   Have you ever published any articles, Mr.

           15  Kohanski?

           16       A.   No.

           17       Q.   Have you ever submitted any articles for peer

           18  review to any scholarly publication?

           19       A.   No.

           20       Q.   So, you have no experience, personally, of peer

           21  review or how to manage a journal.

           22       A.   No.

           23       Q.   But you still believe that these were

           24  reprehensible acts in the management of a journal,

           25  correct?



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            1       A.   Yes.

            2       Q.   You also mention "Illicit collaboration".  As a

            3  particular example, you cite, "Dr. Jackson proceeded to

            4  solicit responses from his close and caring colleagues."

            5  Is that illicit?  Strike that question, and let me be

            6  more precise.  I'm sorry, Mr. Kohanski.

            7                Is it illicit collaboration for a member of

            8  an editorial staff to solicit articles for a scholarly

            9  publication?

           10       A.   Well, it's not illegal.

           11       Q.   That's not my question.  I asked you if it was

           12  an illicit act to solicit contributions to a scholarly

           13  journal by its editorial staff?

           14       A.   I guess not.

           15       Q.   Are you aware that a description of the

           16  editor's duties by -- edited by Dr. Benjamin Brand, who

           17  is the department chair, I believe, of your department

           18  made it a duty of the editor to solicit articles?

           19       A.   I was not aware of that.

           20       Q.   And you also say it was an illicit

           21  collaboration because Dr. Ewell was neither notified nor

           22  asked to respond, correct?

           23       A.   That is correct.

           24       Q.   Were you aware that Dr. Ewell was notified of

           25  the upcoming Volume 12 as responses to his paper at the



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            1  Society for Music Theory plenary conference or plenary

            2  paper that he delivered in November of 2019?

            3       A.   Yes.

            4       Q.   So, that's a false statement that he was not

            5  notified, correct?

            6       A.   That's not false.

            7       Q.   How is it not false, if he was notified?

            8       A.   Because if it went out on an e-mail list,

            9  there's a chance he might not have seen it.

           10       Q.   So, it's your position that because he might

           11  not have seen something sent to him that he was not

           12  notified?

           13       A.   But it wasn't sent to him.

           14       Q.   That's not my question.  Could you just answer

           15  my question?  Your position is this -- well, first of

           16  all, what are we talking about?  What is your

           17  understanding of what was sent to Dr. Philip Ewell?

           18       A.   A call for papers in response to his keynote.

           19       Q.   And the keynote, you mean something delivered

           20  in November -- I think early November at the Society for

           21  Music Theory, correct?

           22       A.   Yes.

           23       Q.   And that was November 2019, correct?

           24       A.   Yes.

           25       Q.   So, it's your position that being sent a call



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            1  for papers is not being notified.

            2                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, vague.

            3       A.   In this case, yes.

            4       Q.   (By Mr. Allen) And it also does not count as

            5  being asked to respond that you would receive a call for

            6  papers asking you to respond, is that correct?

            7                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, vague.

            8       A.   In this case, yes.

            9       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  Do you know if there's a

           10  requirement in scholarly practice to send personal

           11  invitations to authors whose work is being criticized?

           12       A.   I don't know if there's a requirement.

           13       Q.   Do you know the source of any such requirement,

           14  if it should exist?

           15       A.   What do you mean by "the source"?

           16       Q.   If you were going to look for the sources of

           17  these sort of rules you seem to be applying in this

           18  letter, against illicit collaboration, against editorial

           19  missteps, against lack of peer review, where would you

           20  go to look to find those established rules of

           21  scholarship, Mr. Kohanski?

           22       A.   The general conventions of the field.

           23       Q.   What is the source of these general conventions

           24  of the field?

           25       A.   People.



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            1       Q.   So, can that be more or less reduced to things

            2  you've heard from colleagues?

            3       A.   No.

            4       Q.   Well, what is the source of conventional

            5  wisdom?

            6       A.   Scholars and academics and the normal

            7  functioning of academia.

            8       Q.   Who did you consult with regard to lack of peer

            9  review, illicit collaboration, and editorial missteps

           10  when you composed this letter?

           11       A.   Other graduate students.

           12       Q.   Do you know if any of them had any experience

           13  editing?

           14       A.   To my knowledge, no.

           15       Q.   How many of them had actually had experience

           16  publishing peer reviewed articles?

           17       A.   Well, actually -- so, Levi Walls.

           18       Q.   Levi Walls -- is it pronounced Levee

           19  (Phonetic)?

           20       A.   Layvi (Phonetic).

           21       Q.   Layvi (Phonetic).  Thank you.  And Mr. Levi

           22  Walls was the graduate student editor of the Journal of

           23  Schenkerian Studies, correct?

           24       A.   I don't know if that's the exact position

           25  title, but for all intents and purposes, yes.



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            1       Q.   We can agree that he was an editor.

            2       A.   Yes, and a graduate student.

            3       Q.   Okay.  And he was the only one, to your

            4  knowledge, that had experience of editing academic

            5  journals.

            6       A.   Editing academic journals that were anything

            7  other than student -- completely student run or for

            8  graduate students, as in graduate student work was to be

            9  published in those journals.

           10                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  We're coming up on an hour.

           11  Can we take a break, when you get to the stopping point?

           12                 MR. ALLEN:  Let's go through these points,

           13  if you don't mind, Matt, and then, I think we will wrap

           14  up relatively soon after that with this line of

           15  questioning.

           16                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Yeah.  Let's go ahead and

           17  take a break right now, if that's okay.

           18                 MR. ALLEN:  All right.  If someone needs

           19  to go to the restroom -- incidentally, Mr. Kohanski, this

           20  is before we go off the record.  If at any time you want

           21  to break, just feel free to ask for one.

           22                 THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

           23                 MR. ALLEN:  So, let's go off the record,

           24  then.

           25                 (OFF THE RECORD FROM 10:01 TO 10:10 A.M.)



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            1       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  Are you ready, Mr. Kohanski?

            2       A.   Yes.

            3       Q.   I wanted to follow-up on some questions we

            4  asked earlier about you including a cross-section or

            5  invoking a cross-section of the graduate students in

            6  sending this letter soliciting support.  Did you include

            7  graduate students in the music theory program in that?

            8       A.   Yes.

            9       Q.   How many music theory graduate students are

           10  there in the College of Music?

           11       A.   I'm not sure.

           12       Q.   Is it more than ten?

           13       A.   I probably would say it's around ten, yes, no

           14  more than fifteen, I would guess.

           15       Q.   Did you reach out to all of them?

           16       A.   Yes.

           17       Q.   And did you include any of them in the drafting

           18  of this letter, which is attached to Exhibit 2?

           19       A.   Did I include any music theory students?

           20       Q.   Yes.

           21       A.   Yes.

           22       Q.   Whom did you include?

           23       A.   Rachel Gain, Bryan Stevens, Justin Sales,

           24  Alexandra Rouw, Rouw, I don't quite know how to say her

           25  name.  I can't -- to the best of my knowledge, that's



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            1  everyone, but there might have been more, but I can't

            2  remember exactly who.

            3       Q.   Did they take an active role in helping draft

            4  this letter?

            5       A.   Rachel Gain and Bryan Stevens did.

            6       Q.   I want to go back to the letter, now.  Under

            7  numeral 3 there, see it says "editorial missteps"?

            8       A.   Uh-huh.

            9       Q.   And then, if you skip down, I think it's the

           10  third sentence that says, "although Levi or Layvi

           11  (Phonetic) --

           12       A.   Layvi (Phonetic).

           13       Q.   "Although Levi did everything within his power

           14  to prevent the publication of racist views -- and you go

           15  on to make some other descriptions of what you

           16  characterize as editorial missteps.  My question for

           17  you, Mr. Kohanski, is what did Levi Walls do that was

           18  within his power to prevent the publication of racist

           19  views, to your knowledge?

           20       A.   He tried to talk to Dr. Jackson about it, and

           21  he went to Dr. Brand about it, to raise his concerns

           22  about the content of the journal, before it was

           23  published.

           24       Q.   Are those the two things that you think he did

           25  that were within his power?



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            1       A.   Yes.

            2       Q.   Did you talk to Mr. Levi Walls about what he

            3  did on the journal?

            4       A.   Yes.

            5       Q.   When?

            6       A.   Again, it was July 2020, right after the

            7  journal came out.

            8       Q.   Did you talk to him in January 2020 about what

            9  he was doing on the journal?

           10       A.   No.

           11       Q.   Are you aware that that's the time he purported

           12  to talk to Benjamin Brand?

           13       A.   I didn't know when exactly he talked to Dr.

           14  Brand.

           15       Q.   And do you know when he purported to talk to

           16  Professor Jackson about eliminating so-called racist

           17  views from the Journal of Schenkerian Studies?

           18       A.   I guess for both of those things, I just knew

           19  that it was the spring semester of 2020.

           20       Q.   And your source of that was a conversation you

           21  had with Mr. Levi Walls himself, correct?

           22       A.   It's not like he was telling me it

           23  specifically.  He was telling a group of us.

           24       Q.   Where was this?

           25       A.   On Zoom.



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            1       Q.   And this was that Zoom call that took place in

            2  early -- or excuse me -- late July?

            3       A.   No.

            4       Q.   When did the Zoom call take place, again?

            5  Excuse me.

            6       A.   It was late July, but there were several Zoom

            7  calls that whole week.  I don't remember specifics of --

            8  well, I guess they've all blurred together, is my point.

            9       Q.   Well, could you characterize for the Court

           10  approximately how many Zoom calls there were?

           11  Understanding that you might not be exactly correct,

           12  just within a range.

           13       A.   Five to ten maybe.

           14       Q.   Over the course of how many days?

           15       A.   Probably about a week.

           16       Q.   So, it sounds like there was almost -- or at

           17  the very least a meeting a day, is that correct?

           18       A.   Yes.

           19       Q.   Maybe sometimes more?

           20       A.   Yes.

           21       Q.   Was Mr. Levi Walls on all of those calls?

           22       A.   No.

           23       Q.   How was Mr. Levi Walls invited to participate

           24  in these calls?

           25       A.   After the journal came out, and we were all



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            1  reacting very negatively towards it, we decided we

            2  wanted to come together and issue some sort of

            3  statement.  And so, we just -- we tried to invite as

            4  many people as we thought, and, yeah, that's how all

            5  those Zoom calls started.

            6       Q.   Did you, personally, reach out to Mr. Levi

            7  Walls?

            8       A.   At times during that week, yes, but not

            9  necessarily to discuss those two topics that we were

           10  just discussing.

           11       Q.   What did you discuss with Mr. Walls?

           12       A.   He was concerned about the -- about the

           13  reactions that were coming up online, and he wanted

           14  to -- he wasn't on Twitter, so he wanted me to keep him

           15  up to date on those types of things.

           16       Q.   Are you on Twitter?  I forget your answer to

           17  that.

           18       A.   Yes.

           19       Q.   And did you produce your Twitter feed in the

           20  documents you produced to us?

           21       A.   I produced the tweets or -- tweet or tweets

           22  that I thought was relevant or responsive, as you would

           23  say, yes.

           24       Q.   Thank you.  And what did you tell Mr. Walls

           25  about what was going on on Twitter?



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            1       A.   I told him I believed that the responses to

            2  what we had put out were overwhelmingly positive, and

            3  that -- I think I tried to reassure him that no one

            4  would blame him.

            5       Q.   When you say "what we had put out," what are

            6  you referring to?

            7       A.   The public statement that I believe you have.

            8       Q.   Is that this statement?

            9       A.   No, it's a different one.

           10       Q.   I have another exhibit, and maybe you'll be

           11  able to identify that as the statement, but do you

           12  recall if that statement that you're referring to is the

           13  one that was reproduced as part of the ad hoc panel

           14  report?

           15       A.   I believe that would be it, yes.

           16       Q.   So, let's save that conversation.  I am

           17  interested in what you have to say about that, and we'll

           18  see if that is the one at a later time.  Was there

           19  anything else that you put out that you were reassuring

           20  Mr. Levi Walls that the reaction was positive concerning

           21  these things?

           22       A.   Sorry -- can you --

           23       Q.   Yeah.  Please strike that.  That was a terrible

           24  question.

           25                You earlier said you referred to things you



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            1  had put out on Twitter.  By that, I understand the

            2  graduate students of the College of Music.  And I was

            3  asking what specific things did you put out?  And you

            4  referred to the statement, which hopefully we'll return

            5  to.

            6                I'm now asking, was there anything in

            7  addition to that statement that you put out that you

            8  were reassuring Mr. Walls the response had been positive

            9  to?

           10       A.   I don't believe so.

           11       Q.   Okay.  And reactions online you had referred to

           12  earlier.  What reactions are those?

           13       A.   I guess just random tweets from other people in

           14  the discipline, in the community, who were supporting us

           15  graduate students or who were critical of Volume 12 of

           16  JSS.

           17       Q.   Were there any individuals involved in the

           18  Society for Music Theory outside the community of

           19  graduate students at the University of North Texas that

           20  were participating in those conversations?

           21       A.   I'm sure there were.  I wasn't specifically

           22  talking to anyone, I was just looking at tweets, so I'm

           23  not quite sure what you mean by conversations, but --

           24       Q.   Well, it's a good point.  And you referred to

           25  tweets.  Were there other social media involved?



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            1       A.   I mean, I posted things on my Facebook page,

            2  and, again, any posts that were responsive, I believe

            3  I've included in the documents.

            4       Q.   So, there's Twitter, Facebook.  Any other

            5  social media?

            6       A.   I mean, I'm sure I talked about this with

            7  people on SnapChat, but those things are gone into

            8  oblivion at this point because SnapChat doesn't stay.

            9       Q.   Any other social media you can think of?

           10       A.   Do you mean where I would have discussed this?

           11       Q.   Where these things were discussed that you were

           12  in turn discussing with Mr. Walls?

           13       A.   I don't believe so, no.

           14       Q.   And you had described SnapChat messages as more

           15  like self-destructing messages, I suppose, is that fair?

           16       A.   Yes.

           17       Q.   Did you discuss anything on SnapChat that was

           18  different in kind than those things you were discussing

           19  on Facebook and on Twitter?

           20       A.   No.

           21       Q.   Do you remember any specific conversations you

           22  had with Mr. Walls at that time that -- by that time, I

           23  mean that critical week.  Sounds like after the

           24  publication appeared, you began holding at least one

           25  Zoom meeting a day.  Do you remember specific



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            1  conversations you had with Mr. Walls?

            2       A.   Yeah.  Again, just he was really concerned

            3  about what this would mean for his future.  And I

            4  probably -- well, probably his mental health, as well.

            5  I remember him being pretty devastated and, yeah, I just

            6  tried to reassure him, and, again, I told him about what

            7  people were saying online.

            8       Q.   And when he -- you said he felt concerned about

            9  his future.  Do you mean about his career?

           10       A.   Yes.  I believe so.

           11       Q.   Were there anything -- was there any other

           12  aspect of his future that he was concerned with, other

           13  than his career, based upon your conversations with him?

           14                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, calls for

           15  speculation.

           16       A.   Not that I can remember.

           17       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  Moving into the next list in

           18  your statement, there's 1 through 5.

           19       A.   Yes.

           20       Q.   "The following steps to be taken."  I just want

           21  to skip down to No. 2.  Of course, you wanted a public

           22  condemnation of the issue, it says here, and release it

           23  fully online to the public.  Did I read that correctly?

           24       A.   Well, you didn't read it verbatim, I guess,

           25  but it was the sentiment.



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            1       Q.   No, I don't want to be unclear.  So, it says,

            2  "The JSS Moving Forward."  "Given the egregious behavior

            3  by the JSS and specifically by the advisory board, we

            4  urgently call for the following steps to be taken."

            5                The first one is to dissolve the journal,

            6  so that's not much moving forward, is it?  It's just

            7  simply to call for the journal to be dissolved, is that

            8  correct?

            9       A.   Yes.

           10       Q.   So, you wished for it to cease to exist, is

           11  that an accurate --

           12       A.   Yes.

           13       Q.   -- summary?  Good.  Now, I'm looking at No. 2,

           14  and it says, "publicly condemn the issue and release it

           15  freely online to the public."  Did I read that correctly

           16  this time?

           17       A.   Yes.

           18       Q.   Was the journal released freely to the public?

           19       A.   I believe it was.

           20       Q.   Do you know of any policy of the journal that

           21  was in place to keep its content from being publicly

           22  accessible?

           23       A.   I do not, no.

           24       Q.   You're aware that the journal was published by

           25  the University of North Texas Press, correct?



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            1       A.   Yes.

            2       Q.   And that's an institution of the University

            3  correct?

            4       A.   Yes.

            5       Q.   Do you know whether the editorial staff

            6  controlled whether the University of North Texas Press

            7  released it freely to the public or not?

            8       A.   I do not know that.

            9       Q.   But it was your position when you drafted this

           10  statement that it was not being released freely to the

           11  public, is that correct?

           12       A.   No.

           13       Q.   Why did you call for it to be released freely

           14  online to the public, if it was already available to the

           15  public?

           16       A.   We just wanted to make sure it wasn't going to

           17  be kind of covered up or shoved aside or hidden.

           18       Q.   Did anyone advocate for it to be shoved aside,

           19  covered up or hidden?

           20       A.   Not to my knowledge, but we were just covering

           21  all our bases, I suppose.

           22       Q.   Are you aware of any time in the past when

           23  public conversations of the University of North Texas

           24  Press were covered up, shoved to the side or hidden?

           25       A.   No.



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            1       Q.   And you also call, on No. 3, for a "full,

            2  detailed, and public account of the editorial and

            3  publication process," do you see that?

            4       A.   Yes, I do.

            5       Q.   Was that ever provided?

            6       A.   Yes.

            7       Q.   In what form?

            8       A.   The ad hoc review panel convened by the

            9  provost.

           10       Q.   Did you mean Provost Jennifer Cowley?

           11       A.   Yes.

           12       Q.   Did you know that Provost Cowley asked

           13  Professor Jackson to submit a response to that ad hoc

           14  panel report?

           15       A.   Yes.

           16       Q.   Was that ever made public?

           17       A.   Not to my knowledge.  I don't believe I've ever

           18  seen it.

           19       Q.   So, is it fair to say that you were not

           20  familiar with Timothy Jackson's response to the ad hoc

           21  panel's report, correct?

           22       A.   Yes.  Besides anything I've seen in the lawsuit

           23  documents.

           24       Q.   Do you know if the University has ever

           25  published his response?



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            1       A.   I don't know.

            2       Q.   Would it be the position of the graduate

            3  students who wrote this statement that that should be

            4  disclosed?

            5       A.   I believe so.

            6       Q.   Well, do you, personally, believe that should

            7  be disclosed?

            8       A.   Yes.

            9       Q.   Do you know why it hasn't been disclosed?

           10       A.   I do not know.

           11       Q.   Moving down to No. 4, you want to hold

           12  accountable every person responsible for the direction

           13  of the publication, correct?

           14       A.   That's correct.

           15       Q.   And you refer to "past bigoted behaviors by

           16  faculty."  Did I read that correctly?

           17       A.   That's correct.

           18       Q.   Could you enumerate for me the past bigoted

           19  behaviors of faculty that you are describing here?

           20       A.   I don't have very many specifics.  I'm sure

           21  other graduate students would be able to talk more about

           22  those.  I did -- I will say, however, I did receive one

           23  e-mail, when this was happening, from a past student who

           24  said -- who is an Asian student, from somewhere in Asia,

           25  and he said that Dr. Jackson told him to try speaking



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            1  with rocks in his mouth to help his enunciation and

            2  diction and speak English better.

            3       Q.   Do you know if this individual could speak

            4  English well?

            5       A.   I do not know.

            6       Q.   Would that be improper, to tell someone that

            7  they could learn to improve their English?

            8       A.   In the way that he did it, yes.

            9       Q.   Why is that?  What in the way he did it, which

           10  you heard from the student's e-mail?  What part of that

           11  was improper, in your view?

           12       A.   I guess I'm not sure how to describe -- or I'm

           13  not sure how I can tell someone that telling someone to

           14  put rocks in their mouth is improper.

           15       Q.   Well, does that mean there's no basis for you

           16  to judge it one way or another, since you don't seem to

           17  be able to articulate it?

           18                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, argumentative;

           19  objection, leading.

           20       A.   No, I think it's improper.

           21       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  So, what is improper about

           22  that?

           23       A.   Someone has the potential to get hurt and

           24  physically wound themselves by putting rocks in their

           25  mouth, and probably using their jaw and I guess chewing



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            1  on them.

            2       Q.   Do you know if Dr. Jackson instructed the

            3  student to chew on rocks?

            4       A.   I don't.

            5       Q.   You said earlier that you've learned two

            6  foreign languages?  Am I mistaken?

            7       A.   Well, I need to learn two foreign languages.

            8       Q.   Are you fluent in any foreign languages?

            9       A.   No.

           10       Q.   Would you consider it harmful to have a native

           11  foreign speaker correct your pronunciation in a foreign

           12  language?

           13       A.   Depends on the way they do it.

           14       Q.   How would you prefer that they do it?

           15       A.   I suppose in private and from a place of care

           16  and helpful -- being helpful.

           17       Q.   So, their subjective feelings would be the most

           18  important thing, is that it?

           19                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, argumentative;

           20  objection leading.

           21       A.   No, I suppose the most important thing would be

           22  the way they go about it.

           23       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  And how should they go about

           24  it?

           25       A.   By not calling someone out and correcting them



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            1  in front of a whole class, as this person told me Dr.

            2  Jackson did.

            3       Q.   Would you agree, Mr. Kohanski, that to teach in

            4  an American university, where the overwhelming language

            5  spoken is English, you would need to speak English

            6  proficiently?

            7       A.   Yes.

            8       Q.   So, wouldn't it be a legitimate part of

            9  graduate training for those students who did not have

           10  basic English proficiency to instruct them on their

           11  English pronunciation?

           12       A.   Well, I would believe if they were already

           13  taking classes at UNT, they did have basic English

           14  proficiency.

           15       Q.   Do you know of any students who don't have

           16  basic English proficiency in the musicology program?

           17       A.   No.

           18       Q.   You mentioned this one e-mail of this student.

           19  Did you ever do anything to verify what the student had

           20  written?

           21       A.   No.

           22       Q.   So you just took it as true as you received it,

           23  correct?

           24       A.   Yes.

           25       Q.   Were there any other past bigoted behaviors



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            1  that you can name, specifically?

            2       A.   So, bigoted referring to -- I mean, bigoted

            3  referring to things that have to do with race and

            4  ethnicity or --

            5       Q.   It's your letter.  I'm asking you, what do you

            6  mean by "bigoted" in this sentence, now that you raised

            7  the issue?

            8       A.   Probably having to do with race and ethnicity.

            9       Q.   And what past bigoted behavior, specifically,

           10  having to do with race and ethnicity, are you referring

           11  to here in this numeral 4?

           12       A.   Again, that instance is the only one that I

           13  know, specifically, but there -- I believe other

           14  graduate students knew more about this or had other

           15  experiences that could speak to that more.

           16       Q.   And, also, who is the student who supposed -- I

           17  guess you characterized him as having to put rocks in

           18  his mouth or some such thing.  Who is that student?

           19       A.   I don't know their name.  I included the e-mail

           20  in the documents.

           21       Q.   I'm skipping down.  You specifically called for

           22  Dr. Jackson's dismissal.  Do you see that, in Exhibit 2?

           23       A.   Yes.  Sorry.

           24       Q.   And, again, you say he has a history of racist,

           25  sexist and abusive behavior in his many capacities.



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            1  What capacities are you referring to, Mr. Kohanski?

            2       A.   I believe as a professor of music theory, as an

            3  adviser, an academic adviser, and in his capacity at the

            4  Center for Schenkerian Studies.

            5       Q.   And you're also calling for that center to be

            6  eliminated, as well, correct?

            7       A.   I don't believe so.

            8       Q.   It's okay to -- if it's not there, you can just

            9  say "no".

           10       A.   Yeah, no, I don't believe it's in here.

           11       Q.   So, what racist, sexist and abusive behavior

           12  are you referring to in this sentence, specifically?

           13       A.   For some of them, again, I don't know

           14  specifics.  I've heard from people, from the very first

           15  semester that I came here, that Dr. Jackson is sexist or

           16  has a past history of sexist behaviors.  In terms of

           17  abusive behaviors, the ones listed here pretty much

           18  speak for themselves.

           19       Q.   So, for the most part, the publication of the

           20  Journal of Schenkerian Studies?  Is that what you mean,

           21  when you say it speaks for itself?  What are you

           22  referring to?

           23       A.   Oh, sorry, these points 1, 2, 3.

           24       Q.   Using the CSS -- all right.  Let's get to those

           25  in a second.



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            1       A.   Sure.

            2       Q.   You consider the publication of the Volume 12

            3  of the Journal of Schenkerian Studies with the

            4  symposium, which included his article, as a racist,

            5  sexist and abusive behavior?

            6       A.   I consider that racist, yes.

            7       Q.   Okay.  So, let's proceed to the specifics.

            8  First of all, can you tell me what a CSS is?

            9       A.   That's Center for Schenkerian Studies.

           10       Q.   I see.  And "RA" means what?

           11       A.   Research assistant.

           12       Q.   And a research assistant to aid with his

           13  personal research.  You consider that a sexist, abusive

           14  and racist behavior, correct?

           15                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, leading.

           16       A.   I consider that an abusive behavior.

           17       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  How is it abusive to have an RA

           18  conduct your personal research?

           19       A.   Because that wasn't their job.

           20       Q.   What was the job of a CSS RA?

           21       A.   The job was to help with the Center for

           22  Schenkerian Studies, not with Dr. Jackson's personal

           23  research.

           24       Q.   Do you think there's a clear division between

           25  Center for Schenkerian Studies research and personal



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            1  research that may or may not have been conducted by

            2  Professor Jackson?

            3       A.   Yes.

            4       Q.   What is that difference?  Where does the line

            5  get drawn, Mr. Kohanski?

            6       A.   Well, my point being that the job of a C -- or

            7  the CSS RA I don't think was necessarily to do research,

            8  but things maybe like administrative things or editing,

            9  things like that.  I could be wrong about that, but to

           10  my understanding, that's what the job was.

           11       Q.   Are you referring to a specific individual in

           12  this No. 1?

           13       A.   Yes.

           14       Q.   Who is that?

           15       A.   Yiyi Gao.

           16       Q.   Can you spell that name for us?

           17       A.   Yeah.  Y-I-Y-I G-A-O.

           18       Q.   And do you know what specific personal research

           19  she was asked to do that supposedly was not the same as

           20  CSS RA work?

           21       A.   I do not know.

           22       Q.   Have you had conversations with Yiyi Gao about

           23  this?

           24       A.   No.  I haven't had conversations with her,

           25  specifically.



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            1       Q.   How did you learn about this supposedly abusive

            2  behavior?

            3       A.   From some of my colleagues.

            4       Q.   Who are they?

            5       A.   Bryan Stevens, Brian Anderson.

            6       Q.   What did they tell you?

            7       A.   Basically, exactly what's here.

            8       Q.   The mere fact that some RA was supposed to be

            9  used to do personal research for a professor to whom

           10  they were assigned as a research assistant?

           11       A.   I don't think that's a good summary of what's

           12  there, because I don't believe she was assigned to Dr.

           13  Jackson as a research assistant.

           14       Q.   She was assigned to the CSS, that's your

           15  understanding?

           16       A.   Yes.

           17       Q.   Do you believe that some of Professor Jackson's

           18  research, personal research, was also part of the work

           19  of the CSS?

           20       A.   I don't remember specifics -- more specifics

           21  than this about what Bryan and Brian told me.  But it is

           22  my understanding, generally, from those types of

           23  conversations, that she was used for work that she

           24  wasn't -- that wasn't part of her job.

           25       Q.   And do you know what that work was?  You don't



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            1  know anything about the specifics of that work, or do

            2  you?

            3       A.   I don't necessarily remember.  I'm sure at some

            4  point I knew about it, but --

            5       Q.   And the -- let's move on to the second point,

            6  "requiring student work during the summer without pay."

            7  Do you know what specific students were required to do

            8  work during the summer without pay?

            9       A.   These Point 1, 2 and 3 are all related to Yiyi,

           10  I believe.

           11       Q.   Do you know what work she was required to do

           12  during the summer without pay?

           13       A.   I don't know if -- I don't know if it ties in

           14  with Point 1, his personal research, or if it was just

           15  work for the CSS.

           16       Q.   Do you think it's common for students to do

           17  work over the summer without pay?

           18       A.   Not if it's a job that -- not if it's work that

           19  has to do with a university position that they should be

           20  getting paid for.  It's common for me to do work over

           21  the summer on my own research, on my dissertation, or

           22  something like that, but if a professor asked me to be a

           23  TA for them over the summer without pay, then yeah,

           24  that's unusual.

           25       Q.   If you were required to complete work that you



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            1  had left undone as part of your normal job, would that

            2  be something you would consider abusive?

            3       A.   No, I guess not.

            4       Q.   No. 3 is interesting, Mr. Kohanski.  It

            5  mentions extortion.  Do you agree that extortion refers

            6  to a crime?

            7       A.   I guess so.

            8       Q.   And this refers to grade manipulation.  Let's

            9  take that first.  What grade manipulation do you believe

           10  Mr. Jackson engaged in?

           11       A.   Again, I don't remember specifics.  This still

           12  has to do with Yiyi.

           13       Q.   So, you have no personal knowledge of what

           14  grades were supposedly manipulated.

           15       A.   I did in the summer of 2020, but I don't

           16  remember now.

           17       Q.   Where would that recording or written record of

           18  what you knew in the summer of 2020 exist?

           19       A.   There probably isn't one.

           20       Q.   But right now, you can't recall what specific

           21  manipulation was referred to here.

           22       A.   I don't remember, to be honest.

           23       Q.   And threats to students' careers and

           24  reputations.  If I'm summarizing correctly what you said

           25  before, you're still referring only to Yiyi Gao, is that



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            1  correct?

            2       A.   That's correct.

            3       Q.   So, putting "students" in the plural is an

            4  exaggeration, is that correct?

            5       A.   I'm not sure actually.  I'm not sure now if

            6  there were others or not, because I guess we would have

            7  been very specific about saying students, plural, so I

            8  don't know.  But Yiyi is, I guess, the only specific

            9  example I can think of.

           10       Q.   So you can't think of another student that you

           11  would include in that No. 3 category at this time.

           12       A.   That's correct.

           13       Q.   How was her -- let's just focus on Yiyi Gao.

           14  How was her career and reputation threatened?

           15       A.   Again, I can't remember the specifics.

           16       Q.   Are there any circumstances in which students'

           17  careers and reputations would be legitimately threatened

           18  when a professor works with them?

           19       A.   Sorry, can you clarify?

           20       Q.   Can you identify any circumstances in which it

           21  would be legitimate for a student's career and

           22  reputation to be threatened in their work with a

           23  professor?

           24       A.   No.

           25       Q.   So, in your view, a student's career and



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            1  reputation should never be threatened in their work with

            2  a professor.

            3       A.   That's correct.

            4       Q.   Even if they fail to perform up to the

            5  standards required by the program?

            6       A.   That's correct.  I don't think it's a

            7  professor's place to do that.

            8       Q.   You don't think it's a professor's place to

            9  evaluate students' work?

           10       A.   No.  It is -- it is a professor's place to

           11  evaluate students' work, but I don't think it's a

           12  professor's -- if they're not performing up to standard,

           13  then the professor's job is to help them and not to

           14  threaten they're career and say, you're not going to

           15  make it, or you're going to fail, or things like that.

           16       Q.   Did I understand you correctly --

           17                Could you read back his answer, please?

           18                (THE RECORD WAS READ BACK.)

           19       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  So, you don't think there are

           20  any circumstances in which a professor should fail a

           21  student where the student is not meeting expectations.

           22       A.   Not in graduate school.

           23       Q.   Can a professor ever refuse to work with a

           24  student, in your view?

           25       A.   Yes.



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            1       Q.   Under what circumstances?

            2       A.   If they have too many students currently, or if

            3  their research interests completely diverge.

            4       Q.   And do you have any knowledge that there was

            5  actually extortion involved?

            6       A.   Again, that's a very, as you said, kind of a

            7  very specific term, and I believe we wouldn't have put

            8  it without a good reason.  And I don't think I was the

            9  one who used that or who came up with that word or who

           10  decided to use that word, again, because other people

           11  have much more in depth knowledge about what happened in

           12  this specific situation.

           13       Q.   But you agree this letter went out under your

           14  signature, correct, which is on the first page of

           15  Exhibit 2?

           16       A.   Yes, that's correct.

           17       Q.   Was the -- do you have any memory that the

           18  extortion claimed in this No. 3 was sexist?

           19       A.   I believe that was part of it, yes.

           20       Q.   Do you have any knowledge that Professor

           21  Jackson, for example, offered to give or withhold a

           22  grade based on sexual favors?

           23       A.   No.

           24       Q.   Do you know -- do you have any memory of what

           25  you were referring to as the sexist behavior that



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            1  constituted extortion here?

            2       A.   I think the point was just that Yiyi's a woman,

            3  and he treated her this way, and that he doesn't treat

            4  men this way.

            5       Q.   Do you know of any other women that he treated

            6  this way?

            7       A.   Not these specific points that we have listed.

            8       Q.   Do you know of any other women that Professor

            9  Jackson has taught or mentored over the years?

           10       A.   I guess I know some current students who either

           11  want to work with him or are working with him.

           12       Q.   And do they complain that he's sexist?

           13       A.   I have never had that type of conversation with

           14  them, no.

           15       Q.   So, when you say -- if you skip to the second

           16  to the last sentence of that paragraph, it says, "a

           17  pattern of harmful behaviors that disproportionately

           18  affected marginalized students."  What harmful behaviors

           19  and what marginalized students are you referring to?

           20       A.   Harmful behaviors, including the racist, sexist

           21  and abusive behaviors and marginalized students, women

           22  and people of color.

           23       Q.   What women and people of color are you

           24  referring to?

           25       A.   Again, I don't -- past Yiyi, I really don't



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            1  know specifics, but more just generally, I feel like

            2  that this is the reputation that Dr. Jackson has.

            3       Q.   You're aware that Dr. Jackson is married to a

            4  Korean woman, correct?

            5       A.   I think I was, yes.

            6       Q.   Does a Korean woman count as a person of color,

            7  in your view?

            8       A.   Yes.

            9       Q.   Do you think his wife is marginalized?

           10       A.   I mean, generally, people of color are

           11  marginalized in society.

           12       Q.   That's not my question.  I asked if you thought

           13  Mr. Jackson's wife was marginalized.

           14                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, argumentative;

           15  objection --

           16                 MR. ALLEN:  I'm asking him to answer the

           17  question, Matt.

           18                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, argumentative.

           19  You've already answered it; asked and answered.

           20                 MR. ALLEN:  He has not answered it.  He

           21  answered a separate question that he wanted to answer.

           22  Could I have you repeat the question to the witness,

           23  please?

           24                (THE RECORD WAS READ BACK.)

           25       A.   Based on the very little I know about her, I



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            1  believe maybe there have been times when she could have

            2  been marginalized in society.

            3       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  What are those times?

            4       A.   I don't know.

            5       Q.   So, you have no personal knowledge.

            6       A.   No.

            7       Q.   And is the basis of your statement that you

            8  just believe people of color are generally marginalized?

            9       A.   I believe they can be, yes.

           10       Q.   One last thing on this document, addressing the

           11  MHTE division's culture.  And MHTE I think is the

           12  division, is it not, and it stands for music, history,

           13  theory and ethnomusicology?

           14       A.   That's correct.

           15       Q.   And, again, if I mistake any of these terms,

           16  just please point them out, Mr. Kohanski.  The first

           17  sentence refers to a problematic culture within our

           18  division.  Do you see that?

           19       A.   Yes.

           20       Q.   Can you describe for the Court what you mean by

           21  the problematic culture within the division of MHTE?

           22       A.   I think that there are certain general --

           23  certain -- sorry.  Some faculty members who are not

           24  concerned with things like diversity and inclusion and

           25  making meaningful change in the division.



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            1       Q.   So it comes down to this what you call

            2  diversity and inclusion, correct?

            3       A.   What do you mean comes down to it?

            4       Q.   I'm asking you what the problematic culture --

            5  I asked you to describe the problematic culture, and you

            6  referred to diversity, equity and inclusion.  Did I

            7  mistake that?

            8       A.   No.

            9       Q.   So, now, I want you to just describe for me

           10  what you mean by diversity, equity and inclusion,

           11  please.

           12       A.   I mean that there are certain faculty members

           13  in the division who have racist, sexist, misogynistic,

           14  et cetera, behaviors, and I also believe that, as we

           15  outlined, that there's a problem with accountability in

           16  the division.

           17       Q.   And who are these faculty members who are

           18  sexist, racist and misogynistic?

           19       A.   Dr. Jackson, for one.  And I suppose I've --

           20  well, at least exhibit racist, sexist, misogynistic

           21  maybe behaviors, I would say.

           22       Q.   And are those behaviors what we have already

           23  gone through in the detail of this letter?

           24       A.   Again, I don't know if I can speak to

           25  specifics, because I'm a straight, white man, and I'm



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            1  privileged, and I necessarily haven't experienced those

            2  behaviors from faculty, but there are -- there are

            3  faculty in the division, I think, with general

            4  reputations that include racism, sexism, et cetera.

            5       Q.   And I find this kind of interesting.  You just

            6  described yourself as a white, straight man who has

            7  privilege, is that it?

            8       A.   Yes.

            9       Q.   Isn't that a monolithical statement, Mr.

           10  Kohanski?

           11       A.   I think it's easier to apply monolithical

           12  statements to people who have privilege.

           13       Q.   And would all white, straight men be included

           14  in that category?

           15       A.   Yes.  It means the color of their skin or their

           16  sexual orientation didn't make things hard for them.

           17  I'm not saying life is not hard for them, but --

           18       Q.   Do you consider Jews part of that category of

           19  white, straight men -- white, Jewish, straight men?

           20       A.   I have no idea.

           21       Q.   I believe this Exhibit 2 has been marked, and

           22  I'm placing it in the exhibit file.  I'm going to give

           23  you a last exhibit, if I could have this exhibit marked

           24  as Exhibit 3, please.

           25               (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 3 MARKED.)



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            1       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  Now, Mr. Kohanski, I'm going to

            2  represent to you that this Exhibit 3, which oddly enough

            3  the first line says "Exhibit 3," was taken from the ad

            4  hoc panel report of the University of North Texas.  Do

            5  you know what I'm referring to when I refer to the ad

            6  hoc panel report?

            7       A.   Yes.

            8       Q.   And could you describe for the Court what you

            9  understand is the ad hoc panel report?

           10       A.   It was a report that was the product of an

           11  investigation into the conception and the editorial

           12  process of the Journal of Schenkerian Studies, Volume

           13  12.

           14       Q.   And that was a culmination of policies and

           15  administrative actions that you requested the University

           16  take with regard to Professor Jackson, correct?

           17       A.   Sorry, can you repeat that?

           18       Q.   This investigation -- you just described the ad

           19  hoc panel's investigation into the journal and Professor

           20  Jackson, correct?

           21       A.   Yes.

           22       Q.   And that was the culmination of things you had

           23  asked for, as graduate students, in circulating your

           24  letter.

           25       A.   In part.



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            1       Q.   The letter in Exhibit 2, correct?

            2       A.   In part.

            3       Q.   So, it's safe to say that was a realization of

            4  one of the things you had asked for.

            5       A.   Yes.

            6       Q.   And one thing -- you'll see this goes back and

            7  front, sorry, on the page, Exhibit 3.  One thing I find

            8  curious is that it's different in form from the one you

            9  first circulated in Exhibit 2.  And revisiting

           10  Exhibit 2, it seems to be dated somewhere around

           11  July 29th, 2020.

           12                And yet this one, which is incorporated in

           13  the ad hoc panel report, which I believe appeared on

           14  November 25th, 2020, and if I get the date wrong, it's

           15  in that time range, is slightly different.

           16       A.   Uh-huh.  That's correct.

           17       Q.   And so, could you tell me how this document

           18  came to be different from the one you circulated in late

           19  July?

           20       A.   This document was written and circulated first,

           21  before the one in Exhibit 2, and our goal with this

           22  document was more to issue an apology and to try to

           23  ensure an accountability and things like that.

           24       Q.   When was this document circulated?  Let me

           25  retract that, please.



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            1                When was this document, Exhibit 3,

            2  circulated first?

            3       A.   Again, that first week in late July.  I don't

            4  remember the exact date, but, again, it was that first

            5  week where all of this happened, in late July of 2020.

            6       Q.   And I'm going to represent to you that the

            7  Journal of Schenkerian Studies released Volume 12

            8  sometime around July 25th, 2020.  Is that your

            9  understanding, as well, Mr. Kohanski?

           10       A.   Yes.

           11       Q.   And Exhibit 2 was circulated, it would appear,

           12  at least by July 29th, 2020, four days later, correct?

           13       A.   Yes.

           14       Q.   So, is it safe to say this was circulated first

           15  sometime between July 25th and July 28th?

           16       A.   Yes.

           17       Q.   And who authored this publication or -- let's

           18  refer to it as the first statement, is that fair?

           19       A.   That's fine.

           20       Q.   So, Exhibit 3, the first statement, who

           21  authored this first statement?

           22       A.   To the best of my knowledge -- so, I was not as

           23  involved in actually drafting and writing this statement

           24  as I was with the second one, so I wasn't in the

           25  meetings where that happened, but I believe it was Brian



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            1  Anderson, Rachel Gain, Salvador Hernandez, Elizabeth

            2  Durrant, that's D-U-R-R-A-N-T.

            3       Q.   What was her first name, again?

            4       A.   Elizabeth.

            5       Q.   Elizabeth?

            6       A.   And I -- to the best of my knowledge, that's

            7  everyone I remember.

            8       Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if these individuals

            9  who drafted the first statement had actually read the

           10  Volume 12 symposium of the Journal for Schenkerian

           11  Studies?

           12       A.   I'm sure they read part or all of it.

           13       Q.   At what time did you become involved in

           14  drafting these various statements?

           15       A.   From the start.  I just wasn't someone who

           16  decided or who was involved in actually writing this

           17  one.

           18       Q.   Were you helping organize that from within the

           19  graduate association?

           20       A.   Organize what?  I'm sorry.

           21       Q.   Sorry.  Organizing the drafting of these

           22  statements?  Were you helping organize that?

           23       A.   Yes.  As one of the student leaders of the

           24  division, yes, I was helping organize all this.

           25       Q.   And if you skip down towards the end there,



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            1  there's a numeral 3.  See, "hold accountable every

            2  person responsible for the direction of the

            3  publication"?

            4       A.   Yes.

            5       Q.   Is there anything referred to in this paragraph

            6  that we haven't already discussed, in terms of the

            7  second statement, which was Exhibit 2?

            8       A.   No, I don't believe so.

            9       Q.   So, where it says, "specifically, the actions

           10  of Dr. Jackson -- both past and present -- are

           11  particularly racist and unacceptable," as you sit here

           12  today, you can't identify any other actions that Mr. --

           13  or excuse me -- Professor Jackson engaged in, other than

           14  those we've already discussed.

           15       A.   That's correct.

           16       Q.   I want to return to this issue of diversity,

           17  equity and inclusion, which I believe is also referred

           18  to in this first statement.  If you look at the third

           19  sentence in that last paragraph, "we gratefully

           20  acknowledge the push for inclusion and diversity in

           21  academia," do you see that?

           22       A.   Yes, I do.

           23       Q.   And did I read that correctly?

           24       A.   Yes.

           25       Q.   Could you explain to me, again, what is meant



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            1  by "diversity and inclusion"?

            2       A.   I think, generally speaking, in music academia,

            3  the systems that are in place uphold whiteness and favor

            4  whiteness, by which I mean white music and white

            5  composers as the primary object of study.  And by

            6  talking about inclusion and diversity, we need to change

            7  that and recognize equality through difference.  That is

            8  all musics are no greater and no less than any other

            9  one, but they're just as valid in terms of their musical

           10  and cultural expression.

           11                So, that's on maybe a more cultural level

           12  than speaking on a very practical level.  I believe the

           13  field is also -- there aren't a lot of people of color

           14  in the field or otherwise, you know, minorities and

           15  marginalized people, and I believe that needs to change,

           16  as well.

           17       Q.   How do you intend for the inclusion and

           18  diversity initiative you just described to change that

           19  fact?

           20       A.   Did I describe initiatives?

           21       Q.   It sounded to me like you wanted more people of

           22  color to be recruited to study this field of study

           23  you've chosen for your own scholarship.  Is that a fair

           24  characterization?

           25       A.   Yes.



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            1       Q.   And you also wanted to -- and, again, correct

            2  me if I'm wrong, but I'm trying to summarize what you

            3  said, so I'm not trying to invent things here, but it

            4  sounded to me like you also suggested that there should

            5  be less emphasis on what you characterize as white music

            6  and more emphasis on what you characterize as music of

            7  people of color, is that correct?

            8       A.   No.

            9       Q.   So, could you explain that to me once again?

           10       A.   To elevate other musics does not mean to

           11  diminish western classical music.  It means -- it means

           12  creating a bigger space for everything.

           13       Q.   How would you go about accomplishing that

           14  bigger space for everything with diversity and inclusion

           15  initiatives?

           16       A.   I mean, that's in part, I think, a job for

           17  people much higher up than me at this point in my life.

           18       Q.   Do you know -- sorry.  Go ahead.

           19       A.   I mean, I'm only a graduate student.

           20       Q.   Do you know of anything Professor Jackson has

           21  done to prevent the inclusion of other forms of music in

           22  the division?

           23       A.   I think Schenkerian analysis is necessarily

           24  exclusive.

           25       Q.   So, you think Schenkerian analysis is



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            1  exclusive.  Why is that?

            2       A.   Because it was developed to study a very

            3  specific type of music.  And, again, I'm no expert here,

            4  but based on what I know.

            5       Q.   Were you aware that Heinrich Schenker himself

            6  applied his analysis to black jazz music in the '20s?

            7       A.   I was not.

            8       Q.   Do you think that's impermissible?

            9       A.   I think there's better ways to study jazz

           10  music.

           11       Q.   So you would like to exclude Schenkerian

           12  analysis from the division?

           13       A.   No, I didn't say that.

           14       Q.   Do you think the application of Schenkerian

           15  analysis to music is itself racist?

           16       A.   So, are you talking about the theory itself?

           17  The analysis itself?

           18       Q.   Well, let's start again.  What do you --

           19  describe -- you're the graduate student, right?  I can

           20  assure you, I am a musical troglodyte, especially

           21  compared to you, Mr. Kohanski, so why don't you describe

           22  for the Court your understanding of Schenkerian

           23  analysis.

           24       A.   So, to be honest, I have a very limited

           25  understanding of Schenkerian analysis because I've never



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            1  studied it.  I can, I guess, generally understand the

            2  basics, but again, I'm not a theorist.  I'm training to

            3  be a historian, so --

            4       Q.   So, what are the basics that you understand?

            5       A.   That it's taking complex structures and sort of

            6  simplifying them.

            7       Q.   Simplifying them in what way?

            8       A.   I guess showing harmonic progressions and voice

            9  leading on a much larger scale, as opposed to, you know,

           10  measure by measure or system by system, et cetera.

           11       Q.   Sorry.  Go ahead.  Were you going to add

           12  something else?

           13       A.   Yeah, and I guess everything can be -- again, I

           14  am not trained in Schenkerian analysis, but it's my

           15  understanding that there's a 1-5-1 chord progression

           16  that everything can kind of come down to.

           17       Q.   In your view, how is that not inclusive?

           18       A.   Because not all music functions that way.

           19       Q.   Like, what music does not function that way?

           20       A.   Let's say, for example, any -- I would say

           21  almost any music that's not western.

           22       Q.   And what about that technique that you've

           23  described, the Schenkerian analysis in your

           24  understanding of it, is not diverse?

           25       A.   Because it's specifically used for one -- it --



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            1  I know you said Schenker was, you know, used it for

            2  jazz, but I think it valorizes a specific type of music.

            3       Q.   What type of music?

            4       A.   Western music.

            5       Q.   And by that, do you mean music produced primary

            6  by white men?

            7       A.   Primarily, yes.

            8       Q.   Isn't that a monolithic statement, Mr.

            9  Kohanski?

           10       A.   Again, I think that when it comes to privilege,

           11  we don't necessarily have to be as careful as using

           12  monolithic statements.

           13       Q.   So it's okay to be monolithic when you're

           14  addressing privilege.

           15       A.   I think so.

           16       Q.   So, given what you said, it sounds to me like

           17  you've reached the conclusion that to apply Schenkerian

           18  analysis necessarily excludes and diminishes other forms

           19  of non-western music, is that fair?

           20                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, leading.

           21       A.   Can you repeat that?

           22       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  It sounds to me, based on your

           23  analysis of Schenkerian studies, as you understand them,

           24  to apply this technique necessarily diminishes non-

           25  western forms of music.  Is that a fair assessment of



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            1  what you've said?

            2                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, leading.

            3       A.   To apply it to what?

            4       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  To apply it at all.  To use

            5  this technique, you said that it's only built for one

            6  form of music, western classical music as commonly

            7  understood by lay people, such as myself.  Am I

            8  summarizing what you said correctly?

            9       A.   Yes.

           10       Q.   So given that that is so, to use the system of

           11  analysis, Schenkerian analysis in the first place, it

           12  sounds to me like it's your view that that diminishes

           13  other forms of music that are not classical music.  Is

           14  that a fair way to summarize what you've been saying?

           15       A.   No.  I don't necessarily think so.

           16       Q.   How would it -- how would it be used to elevate

           17  non-western forms of music?

           18       A.   I don't think it would, actually.

           19       Q.   So, to use it inherently would be to diminish

           20  those forms of music that are non-western.

           21                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Objection, leading.

           22       A.   Just by using the method and being -- and using

           23  Schenker, it doesn't -- it's more about the systems, and

           24  that's like a default, and it's -- right, you can use

           25  it, and that's fine, but the emphasis that's placed on



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            1  things like that, and the emphasis and the way it

            2  valorizes western music, I think is exclusive.

            3       Q.   (By Mr. Allen)  What's the remedy for that

            4  exclusivity, in your view?

            5       A.   I mean, yeah, using other types of analytical

            6  tools.

            7       Q.   Do you believe that the --

            8       A.   And teaching them to students.  And teaching

            9  them to students in the United States.

           10       Q.   What other tools are available, in your view?

           11       A.   Tools that are specific to a music that you

           12  want to study.

           13       Q.   Again, you have to --

           14       A.   I mean, I don't know any.  Like, for example,

           15  do I know how to analyze traditional Chinese music?  No.

           16  But I believe those types of things are things that

           17  should be taught.  Some music theory isn't just western

           18  music.

           19       Q.   So, and again, honestly, Mr. Kohanski, I have

           20  so little knowledge of this.  You're actually in the

           21  role of an instructor here because I am so ignorant of

           22  it.  But are there specifically Chinese techniques that

           23  are more suitable to Chinese music?  I'm asking.  That

           24  seemed to be what you're implying, so I'm just wondering

           25  if that's your position.



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            1       A.   Well, that was just an example.

            2       Q.   Do you know of such techniques?

            3       A.   No.  But I can intuit that there's a better way

            4  that is more specific to the music and meets the music

            5  more where it's at than -- like to Chinese music than

            6  the techniques used in western music theory.

            7       Q.   So, would it be ideal, from a pedagogical

            8  standpoint or from the standpoint of a graduate student,

            9  to study each I guess category of national or ethnic

           10  music from within its own body of music theory?

           11       A.   No, I think that might get a little chaotic and

           12  cluttered, and it might be improbable, I guess, you

           13  know, to do that in the course of a two-year program of

           14  course work, right?  But I believe that music theory in

           15  the United States should not just include western music.

           16       Q.   About diversity, equity and inclusion, to step

           17  back for a second, what programs have been introduced in

           18  the division, the MHTE division, to promote diversity,

           19  equity and inclusion?

           20       A.   So, in the fall of 2019, we had -- I guess they

           21  called it sensitivity training, I don't really know if

           22  that's the right word, but we had workshops with the

           23  office of or division of diversity, equity and

           24  inclusion.  I don't know if that's the right division in

           25  the University or if that's right name, but we had that.



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            1                We have a reading group that's dedicated to

            2  diversity, equity, inclusion in academia.  And to my

            3  knowledge, those are the only real official programs or

            4  initiatives in the division.

            5       Q.   What did the -- let's take those one at a time.

            6  The division of -- I understand you don't necessarily

            7  know the official administrative name for it, but we'll

            8  say it's the division of DEIs.  Do you know what I'm

            9  referring to when I say that?

           10       A.   Yes.

           11       Q.   And so the division of DEI sounds like

           12  organized some sort of training workshop back in the

           13  fall of 2019, correct?

           14       A.   That's correct.

           15       Q.   Can you describe for me the materials that were

           16  used in the training workshop?

           17       A.   Oh, gosh, I don't really remember that.

           18       Q.   Do you remember any of the takeaway lessons?

           19       A.   One of them was on micro-aggressions, and we

           20  talked about micro-aggressions.  To be honest, I was

           21  kind of underwhelmed with the whole thing, in terms of I

           22  wish I had done more and was better, so --

           23       Q.   Do you remember why you were, as you described

           24  it, underwhelmed?

           25       A.   I think -- so, I should clarify.  There were



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            1  several of these -- like over the course of a semester,

            2  there were several of these workshops.  The faculty did

            3  you two alone, the students did two alone, and then we

            4  did a joint thing together.

            5                And I was mostly underwhelmed with the --

            6  with the faculty meeting, I think, because the people --

            7  that one wasn't required, so I think the people that

            8  needed to be there and learn from it weren't.

            9       Q.   And who were the people that you felt most

           10  needed to learn from it?

           11       A.   Dr. Jackson, for one, and some other faculty.

           12       Q.   Could you name them, please?

           13       A.   I think Dr. Illari, Margaret Notley, and I

           14  think that's pretty much it.  I mean, Dr. Slottow, but

           15  he was there, I believe, and I'm not saying that I

           16  believe every one of those individuals I just said are

           17  racist or sexist or et cetera, but I think that there

           18  were things that they could have learned to be more

           19  inclusive and purposely inclusive and diverse and

           20  equitable.

           21       Q.   And what would those things have been?

           22       A.   Well, working on like the isms that I said that

           23  exist before, sexism, racism maybe.  But just, I guess,

           24  generally -- just generally, I guess, just being more

           25  respectful and -- yeah.



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            1       Q.   Just generally being more respectful.  Is that

            2  your statement of what they could have done to show more

            3  dedication to diversity, equity, inclusion?  Am I

            4  getting that correct?

            5       A.   I mean, no.  That's a terrible way to put it.

            6  But I guess this was a long time ago, and I just don't

            7  quite remember where my thinking was at that time.  I

            8  don't think diversity, equity and inclusion is just --

            9  can be watered down to being more respectful, but I

           10  think --

           11       Q.   And I'm asking you, Mr. Kohanski, I'm not

           12  trying to put words in your mouth, you said you were

           13  sort of underwhelmed by the diversity, equity and

           14  inclusion workshops, correct?

           15       A.   Yes.

           16       Q.   And were there any other materials that

           17  accompanied these diversity, equity and inclusion

           18  workshops, such as PowerPoint slides, any sort of

           19  written presentations?

           20       A.   Yes, there were, probably at all three of them,

           21  yeah.

           22       Q.   And could you describe those, please, in as

           23  much detail as you can, understanding the limit of human

           24  memory?  But go ahead.

           25       A.   So, at the joint thing between the faculty and



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            1  the students, before that we had asked -- they had asked

            2  us to fill out a survey on the climate of the division,

            3  and a lot of what they presented there was just the

            4  results of the survey.

            5       Q.   The two before them, were they accompanied by

            6  any other materials?

            7       A.   Yeah, they were, and, again, I can't really

            8  remember what exactly they were.

            9       Q.   Do you know if you got a copy of those

           10  materials in any form?

           11       A.   I don't believe we got copies of the

           12  handouts -- or, I'm sorry, the PowerPoints.  There might

           13  have been handouts that they gave us, but I can't,

           14  again, quite remember.

           15       Q.   Do you have any recollection of who presented

           16  these materials?

           17       A.   Yes.  Again, they were from that division that

           18  I can't remember the name of.  Do you want their names

           19  or --

           20       Q.   If you know, yes.

           21       A.   I think their names were Taraseca and Shawnee

           22  (Phonetic) maybe, something like that.  I think she's

           23  the head of whatever that I'm thinking of.

           24       Q.   This administrative office.

           25       A.   Yeah.  And it might have been even a division



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            1  of that.

            2       Q.   And are those first names, each of them,

            3  Taraseca and Shawnee?

            4       A.   Yeah, they were first names.

            5       Q.   Do you recall either of their last names?

            6       A.   I don't.

            7       Q.   So, you found these materials underwhelming, in

            8  your words, correct?

            9       A.   I should -- I think I found, again, the joint

           10  meeting underwhelming.  I -- I found kind of the

           11  materials that they gave us to be useful, like I didn't

           12  learn things, I learned more maybe about, you know, just

           13  how to be more purposefully aware of behaviors that

           14  might affect people in negative ways based on their real

           15  or perceived identities.

           16       Q.   And is that what you were referring to earlier

           17  as the kind of material about micro-aggressions?

           18       A.   Yeah.  Again, that was the topic of one day,

           19  and then there was another -- that was the second day, I

           20  believe, and the first day, I can't quite remember what

           21  like the overall main topic was.

           22       Q.   If I could ask a question about the climate

           23  survey.  Was that specifically about the climate of the

           24  division itself?

           25       A.   Yes.



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            1       Q.   So, it wasn't the whole university, it was

            2  specifically the division.

            3       A.   It was for the division.

            4       Q.   Was it focused on the faculty, the grad

            5  students, or the faculty, grad students and

            6  undergraduates, or any combination of them all?  Can you

            7  describe that in as much detail as you can?

            8       A.   So, there are no undergraduates in my division,

            9  to my knowledge.  I don't -- I can't remember if the

           10  faculty and the students took different surveys, like

           11  one tailored to faculty, one to students, but it was --

           12  it was, I think, you know, it had multiple choice

           13  questions and then open-ended questions where we could

           14  talk about things.

           15       Q.   Do you remember, yourself, filling it out?

           16       A.   I did fill it out.

           17       Q.   Do you have a record of that anywhere?

           18       A.   I don't think so, no.

           19       Q.   Do you know where such a record would exist?

           20       A.   That office or division would have -- a record

           21  of my personal --

           22       Q.   Yeah.

           23       A.   I don't know if they would have a -- like a

           24  personal -- well, I don't know if they kept or took or

           25  recorded like individual responses with names, but I



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            1  assume that they would have a record of the results of

            2  that survey.

            3       Q.   You also said there was a reading group.  Could

            4  you describe that for me, please?

            5       A.   Sure.  I guess we met -- started this year, met

            6  a couple or few times this semester, two to three times

            7  this semester, and we'll read things that relate to

            8  diversity, inclusion, equitability, et cetera, in

            9  academia.  Whether that's just general work on something

           10  like antiracism or if it's more particular work in that

           11  regard by music scholars.

           12       Q.   And you said you've met two to three times, is

           13  that it?

           14       A.   A semester.

           15       Q.   A semester.

           16       A.   Yes.

           17       Q.   When did this begin?

           18       A.   In the fall semester of 2020.

           19       Q.   Is there a record anywhere of what you've been

           20  reading in these reading groups?

           21       A.   I'd imagine the organizers would have a list of

           22  everything we've read.

           23       Q.   Who are the organizers?

           24       A.   Rebecca Geoffrey-Schwinden, Andrew Chung, and

           25  Miles McLean, I think his name is.



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            1       Q.   I recognize two of those names as faculty.  Is

            2  the third -- the last name you mentioned was who?

            3       A.   Miles McLean.  He is a graduate student in the

            4  division.

            5       Q.   Is he in any way involved in your graduate

            6  association?

            7       A.   No.  But he's involved in the other one.

            8       Q.   What is the other one?

            9       A.   The Student Society for Ethnomusicology at

           10  North Texas.

           11       Q.   Are you a member of that one, as well?

           12       A.   I am not.

           13       Q.   You know, the last question I wanted to ask you

           14  is, it seems like you were soliciting signatures, at

           15  least to Exhibit 2, correct?

           16       A.   That is correct.

           17       Q.   Do you have a list of all of those signatures

           18  anywhere?

           19       A.   It's included in the documents we sent.

           20       Q.   The ones that you produced in response to the

           21  subpoena.

           22       A.   That's correct.

           23                 MR. ALLEN:  Thank you.  I'm going to take

           24  a break.  Again, we've been going for another hour.  I

           25  think we're almost done.  I just want to check my notes



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            1  and talk to my co-counsel.

            2                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Okay.

            3                 MR. ALLEN:  And then we'll -- I guess then

            4  we can reconvene and probably -- I don't know if you'll

            5  want to do any cross examination, but that will be up to

            6  you, Matt.

            7                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Okay.

            8                 (OFF THE RECORD FROM 11:19 TO 11:29 A.M.)

            9                (MR. STOWERS IS NOT PRESENT IN ROOM.)

           10                 MR. ALLEN:  So, Attorney Bohuslav, I have

           11  finished my examination of the witness, and I pass the

           12  witness to you.

           13                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  We will reserve for the

           14  time of trial.

           15                 MR. ALLEN:  Thank you.  So, we'll conclude

           16  the deposition for you and go off the record.

           17                 MR. BOHUSLAV:  Okay.

           18                 (DEPOSITION ADJOURNED AT 11:29 A.M.)

           19

           20

           21

           22

           23

           24

           25



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                            Peter Michael Kohanski     5/18/21        95



            1             IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                           FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
            2                      SHERMAN DIVISION

            3  TIMOTHY JACKSON,             )
                                            )
            4            Plaintiff,         )
                                            ) Case No.
            5  v.                           )
                                            ) 4:21-cv-00033-ALM
            6  LAURA WRIGHT, et al,         )
                                            )
            7            Defendants.        )

            8

            9             -----------------------------------

           10                   DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE

           11                   PETER MICHAEL KOHANSKI

           12                        MAY 18, 2021

           13             -----------------------------------

           14

           15             I, Nita G. Cullen, Certified Shorthand

           16  Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify

           17  to the following:

           18             That the witness, PETER MICHAEL KOHANSKI, was

           19  duly sworn by the officer and that the transcript of the

           20  oral deposition is a true record of the testimony given

           21  by the witness;

           22             I further certify that pursuant to FRCP Rule

           23  30(f)(1) that the signature of the deponent:

           24                ___ was requested by the deponent or a

           25  party before the completion of the deposition and is to



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                            Peter Michael Kohanski     5/18/21        96



            1  be returned within 30 days from date of receipt of the

            2  transcript.  If returned, the attached Changes and

            3  Signature Page contains any changes and the reasons

            4  therefor;

            5                X  was not requested by the deponent or a

            6  party before the completion of the deposition.

            7             I further certify that I am neither attorney

            8  or counsel for, nor related to or employed by, any of the

            9  parties or attorneys to the action in which this

           10  deposition was taken.

           11             Further, I am not a relative or employee of

           12  any attorney of record in this case, nor am I financially

           13  interested in the outcome of the action.

           14              Subscribed and sworn to on this 14th day of

           15  June, 2021.

           16

           17

           18                    _________________________________
                                 NITA G. CULLEN, Texas CSR #1563
           19                    Expiration Date:  08-31-2022
                                 JULIA WHALEY & ASSOCIATES
           20                    Firm Registration No. 436
                                2012 Vista Crest Drive
           21                    Carrollton, Texas 75007-1640
                                 214.668.5578
           22

           23

           24

           25



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